tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post2795282712814718607..comments2024-03-23T05:42:07.516-04:00Comments on The Deliberate Agrarian: Slouching Away From Prosperity (Part 2)Herrick Kimballhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17116051416696885647noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-28991283206533194732008-12-21T12:54:00.000-05:002008-12-21T12:54:00.000-05:00Paul warned the church in Thessalonica (see 2 Thes...Paul warned the church in Thessalonica (see 2 Thes.3) to separate ("withdraw yourselves") from disorderly men--those who believed that the Day of the Lord was at hand and that they thus didn't need to work. These men and women advocated and evidently practiced "holing up." However they were not "holing up" due to a belief in the imminence of the Rapture but because they thought they were experiencing the Day of the Lord.<BR/><BR/>"The Day of the Lord" is the time of judgment for the world. It is when our Lord comes back to take that which is rightly His. In order to do that He must first destroy Babylon--the godless, world civilization. "Great tribulation" is another name for "Day of the Lord." Or, perhaps, "Day of the Lord" is the time when Jesus Christ makes himself visible to the nations at the end of the great tribulation, at which time the nations are judged. Either way the Day of the Lord is NOT the time when Christ comes for His saints. They are two distinct events. <BR/><BR/>The same apostle who warned the Thessalonians against disorderly men also encouraged them that the return of the Lord was imminent. Paul said, "We which are alive and remain shall be caught up with (the dead in Christ) in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." 1 Thes.4:17.<BR/><BR/>According to what I've read in other posts here, it seems as if people are associating the "hole up" mentality with belief in the Rapture and not with the belief that we are in the Day of the Lord. But that's not what Paul warned the Thessalonians against. Paul taught both the Rapture and the Day of the Lord, but he warned the Thessalonians against "holing up" in belief that the latter was at hand. <BR/><BR/>The obvious reason for Paul's warning was that the church will not be on earth during the Day of the Lord. You don't "hole up" for something when you're not going to be here to experience the event.<BR/><BR/>Some people say "the Rapture" isn't in the New Testament. That's like saying there is no Trinity because "Trinity" doesn't appear in the Bible. The Rapture is assuredly in the New Testament. "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed" (1 Cor.15:51) is very straightforward and unequivocal. And so are the passages in 1 and 2 Thessalonians.<BR/><BR/>"The Rapture" gets a bad rap because lots of Christians believe in it who are carnal, worldly, or immature in the faith. But the same is true of disbelievers in the Rapture. What does it prove? Nothing. I see no correlation between belief or disbelief in the Rapture and spiritual maturity. We do not grow to maturity simply by believing the basic truths of Scripture; but we cannot grow up in disbelief of these truths, either.<BR/><BR/>I am leery of Christians who base an argument on the fact that they formerly believed X but now believe Y, as if that proves anything. The only thing that matters is what the Bible says. We can grow in our faith or we can regress in it. True, God will finish the good work He begins in all believers; but that doesn't mean we can't regress in the faith. Our faith may, indeed, be shipwrecked, as was the faith of Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom Paul expelled from the church in order that they should learn not to blaspheme, by which is implied they promoted heretical doctrines.<BR/><BR/>I heard recently a local conservative radio commentator say he used to believe in the Rapture, but that when it didn't happen in the '80's like he thought Hal Lindsey was predicting, he stopped believing in it. This is a prime example of men following men. I don't believe in the Rapture because Hal Lindsey wrote about it. I believe in the Rapture because Paul wrote about it. <BR/><BR/>Another way sound doctrine is deprecated is by associating it with "oppressive" or "dictatorial" churches. But virtually all the churches today are oppressive and dictatorial. They are mostly under the control of the clergy and not a biblical eldership. What the person is really saying is that he prefers the doctrines of a different kind of oppressive and dictatorial church. The fact that the Rapture is taught in an oppressive and dictatorial church does not make it untrue.<BR/><BR/>Then there are the Christians who base their belief or disbelief in the Rapture on the writings of esteemed theologians. But there are "esteemed theologians" on both sides of the ball, and they aren't going to settle the dispute. You will have to go to the Word yourselves, because YOU are ultimately responsible for your own theological growth, "building on the foundation that is Christ." We will be judged on the theological house we build. Yes, we will be judged on our theology.<BR/><BR/>My wife and six kids and I live in the country on three acres. Like Herrick, I work in the city, forty-three miles away. I would like to be free of working in the city, but it is a slow process. We are dedicated to living quiet lives and, indeed, the agrarian lifestyle. We have church in our house, refusing to participate in clericalistic churches that, among other things, emasculate the men and are harmful to families. We homeschool and always have. We raise some chickens, both broilers and layers, and are endeavoring to expand. We are enlarging our gardens and planting more fruit trees and shrubs. My wife and kids are working to develop various cottage industries. But we are far from the day when I can quit my job in the city. We are still, like most of you, in bondage to our wonderful civilization, and it is hard to extricate oneself.<BR/><BR/>We have lived in the country going on twelve years now. It was not easy getting there. That is because it is cheaper to live in the city, and we tried it. It didn’t work for us. I could walk to work, but the living was oppressive. We lived in a decent neighborhood, and yet there were drug dealers living next door. They did their business at night. It makes it harder to sleep.<BR/><BR/>We couldn’t find an affordable place in the country, so we moved to a small town. But since I expressed strong disapproval for the public schools (at the time I was getting ready to resist the authority of the state over my first school-aged child), we quickly became pariahs. In small towns, you know, you have to be strong supporters of the schools, or at least be quiet about them.<BR/><BR/>We looked again for a place in the country, but ended up in another small town, this one further away from Iowa City. Our experience was the same. If you have children and you don't participate in the churches or the schools in a community it is hard to connect. And how could it be otherwise, unless you "keep quiet?" The schools above all else are the sacred institutions in a small town. After all, they field football teams and provide all sorts of opportunity for hanging various (worldly) awards on our trophy children.<BR/><BR/>Finally we found a place in the country. Praise the Lord! Of course we have almost twenty years left on our mortgage, but we have survived our culture. The Lord has helped us all the way. Just as with the manna for the Israelites, He provides us enough for each day. From a "financial planning" standpoint, well, we will not make the cover of any of the "personal finance" magazines where you see a thirty-something man and a woman, two kids, and a dog in front of a nice city house, who have all their financial ducks in a row. (So they thought, until about October.)<BR/><BR/>We are a one-income family to this point. We have homeschooled our kids. If my wife had continued teaching in the public schools (she quit before our first child was born twenty years ago), I suppose we could have all our financial ducks in a row now, too. But we eschewed that corrupt lifestyle. Do I regret it? Not at all. We are gaining eternal benefits where most people are only serving mammon.<BR/><BR/>What does all this have to do with the Rapture? I am here to tell you it is possible to believe in the Rapture and at the same time endeavor to live a separated, agrarian lifestyle. We are not "holing up." We will plan and continue to plan until the Lord comes for us.<BR/><BR/>The statement "the Lord will take us out of here before things get too bad" is a watering down of Bible truth. Do not ascribe it to “Rapture theory.” The Lord will take His saints out before the tribulation of the world. But things can get pretty bad before that happens. Things are pretty bad, now, agreed? How much worse can they get before the Lord returns for His own? I have no idea. But I have this hope in the Lord's imminent return, and "every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure." 1 John 3:3. The Bible plainly says anyone who has hope in the imminent return of the Lord purifies himself. We can purify ourselves. <BR/><BR/>I firmly believe that when Christ returns and assumes His throne, He will facilitate the reestablishment of farming as the predominant and preeminent occupation of men. (You notice I said “facilitate.” That is what good kings do--they enable their subjects to live free and godly.) We will have come full circle back to the Garden. There is a scriptural basis for my belief in that we know the swords will be beaten into plowshares. Men will not achieve this. The U.N. will not achieve this. Christ will achieve this. Perhaps the world will be covered with farms, small farms, healthy farms. No doubt there will be cities, but of a different quality than we see today.<BR/><BR/>And if that is what is going to be, why shouldn’t we aspire to it now?Gary Maskehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09552938464534793388noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-34843453604660568972008-11-28T18:00:00.000-05:002008-11-28T18:00:00.000-05:00For those who read their Bibles - this nation is p...For those who read their Bibles - this nation is prophecied to fall far further than the past Great Depression into a time of trouble such as we have never seen before. I believe that time has started - Jacob's Trouble has begun! Eze 5:11-17, 7:10-27 Our financial and economic collapse will reverberate throughout all economies and cause Europe to rise to a power far greater than us. The Euro is already proving to be stronger than the USD.<BR/>The closer we get to the bottom, the more evident it will become that unless we rely on His hand to save us - we will not be among the survivors - regardless of our skills or knowledge. When we read the percentages of survivors who will come out after that Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord - it should make the hair stand up on the back of our neck!<BR/>The GOOD news is that it will all end well and there is a hope for mankind Isa 40:3-11, Isa 12Ohiobenzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17680610883391456259noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-64328200243693737442008-11-26T19:49:00.000-05:002008-11-26T19:49:00.000-05:00I truly applaud your zeal of living for everything...I truly applaud your zeal of living for everything that God asks of us. It is a journey of purification of character that few will find there way to. Jesus promised that our walk with Him would be fraught with trial and persecution...not abundance and decadence, at least not in this world. Satan has deceived the world and most are happy to go along for the ride... sad, they really think they can have there Babylonian cake and attain eternity too.<BR/>I do have a question for Herrick, but it also applies to all those that purport to be obedient to the Fathers will. Do you follow the Ten Commandments as God wrote them with His finger in stone, or have you succumbed to Babylonian tradition of worship on the venerable day of the sun. I ask this, because I believe with every faculty that God blessed me with, that Sabbath worship is one of the cornerstones of obedience and will be a deciding factor of divine loyalty in the near future. I welcome you comments as to why you worship God on the day you do...<BR/>Maranatha!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-56612852226616676862008-11-26T11:53:00.000-05:002008-11-26T11:53:00.000-05:00The current problem that we are experiencing start...The current problem that we are experiencing started in 1913 with the invention of the federal reserve system. The government gave the sole authority, given to them by the constitution, to print and coin money, to this newly created monster banking system. When our money was "backed" by the gold standard, our money and the value thereof was determined by the value of gold, which for the most part, the value of gold has stayed constant all these years. Any fiat money system to date has failed. Do to greed and "power with money" our country has been destroyed from within. What needs to be done, is that the federal reserve system needs to be shut down some how, some way. Our monetary system needs to be put back on the gold standard. To prove that gold has stayed constant I have been told that back at the turn of the century a brand new suit could be bought with a one ounce gold piece. Today you can still by a top of the line men's suit for a one ounce gold piece. Inflation is not prices going up, it is really the buying power of the federal reserve note has gone way way down.<BR/>Anyone interested in how money comes into existance and how the money system works needs to read and research Byron Dale. Here is his website. He puts the "money" issue in plain English so laymen like myself can understand it.<BR/><BR/>http://www.wealthmoney.org/<BR/><BR/>And yes, I believe the sole reason for all of this is we as a nation, we as individuals have turned from Almighty God and Jesus Christ. We have no morals, holy convictions, and personal responsibilities anymore.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-1034139961354235472008-11-26T01:23:00.000-05:002008-11-26T01:23:00.000-05:00There is a wall in Geneva and upon it is written t...There is a wall in Geneva and upon it is written the words, 'Post Tenebras Lux'. I find that we are looking at having to change that sign to 'Post Lux Tenebras'. Keep up the great work!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-3596102588557375502008-11-25T19:45:00.000-05:002008-11-25T19:45:00.000-05:00Hi Brenda-Just do what you can as the Lord leads y...Hi Brenda-<BR/>Just do what you can as the Lord leads you and your family. Don't worry that its not happening for you as fast as you like. It's a step-by-step process. One step at a time. Thanks for your comment here.<BR/><BR/>2peasnapod-<BR/>I also grew up in the rapture theology church and the mentality profoundly affected my early years. I've blogged about it here somewhere in the archives.<BR/><BR/>Doug-<BR/>I will visit the link you gave. I think we who have a mind to can learn from the survivalism blogs. Thank you.<BR/><BR/>James-<BR/>Thanks for the positive feedback. I'm encouraged that you are encouraged.:-)<BR/><BR/>try2help-<BR/>Good question. I think God is clearly calling a people out of the Babylonian system for His own purposes. I believe that He is speaking to individuals and families and showing them the wisdom of this way of life which I think is well summed up in the term, Christian-agrarianism. <BR/><BR/>Are all Christians hearing the same calling? Clearly not. God works in mysterious ways, His wonders to behold.<BR/><BR/>Perhaps it is akin to Gideon's army. Gideon raised an army of 32,000 men to fight the Midianites. But God only needed 300. All were God's people. But he used the 300 for a special purpose. <BR/><BR/>All I know is that I feel called to live this way because the Lord has made it clear to me that it is the Biblical imperative. That is the way I see it, and that is the calling that I am pursuing.<BR/><BR/>Other Christians will not see it the same way. That is fine. I have no control over that. I do not judge them in a negative way if they do not see things as I do. They are responsible to God for how they respond to His calling in their lives.<BR/><BR/>The Lord is sovereign. He leads and directs. The Christian-agrarian "movement" is not a man-centered, man-driven movement. It is a Christ-centered movement. Those who see and understand the wisdom of this way of life, are responsible to follow the call.Herrick Kimballhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17116051416696885647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-15589983285982126652008-11-25T19:08:00.000-05:002008-11-25T19:08:00.000-05:00"Clearly, not all Christians will hear the call to..."Clearly, not all Christians will hear the call to this kind of life. But the calling is there."<BR/>Are you saying that not all are called to "this kind of life" or are you saying all are being called but most aren't listening?Gerryhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13883289084118606034noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-37947623340440652142008-11-25T12:06:00.000-05:002008-11-25T12:06:00.000-05:00Just read Jim Rawles latest post and I do hope "2p...Just read Jim Rawles latest post and I do hope "2peasinapod" (Nick) reads it. Make sure you read the scriptural defense of armed defense, Nick :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-71414287252434516792008-11-25T11:08:00.000-05:002008-11-25T11:08:00.000-05:00HerrickIt is precisely because you are not a full...Herrick<BR/>It is precisely because you are not a full-blown pioneer that I find your writing so helpful. I can see a man who is doing what he can in the place God has placed him. It encourages me to do the same. If you were a voice crying (literally) from the wilderness, I would say, "I can not go so far. My family could never walk that road." But since you are speaking for separation and simplicity from a place that my family CAN achieve, it gives hope. Thank you for being faithful with what you have, where you are.<BR/>JamesJameshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11363950259121845950noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-39199167194523188612008-11-25T10:42:00.000-05:002008-11-25T10:42:00.000-05:00I know survivalism has been kind of poo-pooped her...I know survivalism has been kind of poo-pooped here, but I encourage you to visit survivalblog.com. The editor, Jim Rawles, is a very conservative Christian. What he encourages his readers to pursue is essentially Christian agararianism. There's a particularly good post today about preparing for the coming collapse versus expecting manna to fall from heaven.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-73962079087985486532008-11-25T09:35:00.000-05:002008-11-25T09:35:00.000-05:00Per 2peasinapod, the comment "I'm not going to do ...Per 2peasinapod, the comment "I'm not going to do anything, the Lord will return before anything gets too bad." troubles me as well. It is a very industrialized and westernized way of thinking filled with pride. Can you imagine those poor persecuted Christians in China making such a statement? How about those persecuted Christians in Sudan, or the Christians in WWII Germany and Poland who were marched to the death camps? I can just see them all saying "I know things look bad but Jesus will rapture us out of here before it really gets bad." I guess we American Christians are more holy and blessed than they - a shameful thought! Truly the heathen mock Jesus because of the things so-called Christians say and do. ~SonyaAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-52082192229095979282008-11-25T07:41:00.000-05:002008-11-25T07:41:00.000-05:00Many of the Christians that I personally know seem...Many of the Christians that I personally know seem to have one of two attitudes.<BR/><BR/>The first is that it doesn't matter what happens, will be okay. "We survived the first depression, we'll do just fine through a second."<BR/><BR/>And I just have to shake my head. The folks who survived the depression were a wholly different caliber of people than most folks are today. The folks back then were accustomed already to providing their own food and doing without store boughten things. Folks today ... not so much. Even many of the so-called "survivalists" that write on the web are relying on store bought supplies for their "preps" (I shudder whenever I see that word), it's just like you say they are "prepping" for a short term event.<BR/><BR/>The second attitude that I seem to be running into more often lately is from folks who call themselves Christians. And it is the attitude that "I'm not going to do anything, the Lord will return before anything gets too bad."<BR/><BR/>And that attitude just really gets my goat. Which church was it that Paul upbraided in the NT for that attitude? I need to go look that up.<BR/><BR/>One of the reasons that upsets me so is because I was raised in that kind of attitude. The churches my mother took me to were very heavy in that kind of teaching, the Lord will return any moment!<BR/><BR/>Granted, he might. But he might not also. I had many discussions with my wife when we were younger, "Should we invest the time in this since the Lord's coming back so soon?" I kid you not. It is a very wrong attitude to have.<BR/><BR/>Anyway, thanks for writing.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-13729569.post-20496694120808703812008-11-24T21:37:00.000-05:002008-11-24T21:37:00.000-05:00I agree with EVERYTHING you've written. I'm taking...I agree with EVERYTHING you've written. I'm taking steps to come out of Babylon, but worry that it's not happening fast enough. The important thing, besides the physical preparation, is as you said, to humble ourselves and pray to the Lord, so that we can find refuge in Him. I appreciate your courage in speaking out like you have, since it is truth. Yet, sadly, many will ignore your warnings, just as they did Noah's. The more we separate from the "group think" of the world, and of the so-called Christian world, the more unpopular we will be. But then, it's not about being accepted by the world, but it's about obedience and conformity to the mind of Christ. Thank you, Herrick, for your obedience in sounding the alarm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com